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Re: An Interesting Consideration of Independent Catholicism

Alexis — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:40:58 -0000

Fr. Anthony,
Thanks for visiting, and for your comments.

We have lots of "ecclesiastical drag shows" here in the UK too. We also have the "rent a priest" in droves (and not just in the Indie community). I think one reason why it hits Independent catholics is that many "want to" be doing what they see other clergy doing - that is, making a living out of, or (with some) making a profit from being a priest. There is an element of this that I think overlaps with your comment about how some of us can feel hopeless, a point I'll re-visit in another edition.

Personally I'm in the camp that says Independent clergy ought to present a different model - we ought to make our way in the world like everybody else, with jobs, relationships etc. In my mind it offers an opportunity for a healthier clergy, and healthier relationships within the community.

I'm also one of those that thinks that taking a fee for doing funerals, weddings, blessings, etc. is a form of selling the sacraments - and I think we can all agree that that is simply wrong.

As clergy we were selected for ordination within our community - free of charge. We were gifted with the responsibility to serve as the "keepers" and "curators" of our traditions symbols and teachings, with the expressed expectation that we would also share them freely, just as Christ first shared them.

Introducing money into the mix "closes" the system, brings an unnatural "finality" to the proceedings, thus defeating the purpose of "being priests" - to be open, to expand, to share, and encourage.

Re: An Interesting Consideration of Independent Catholicism

Fr Anthony Chadwick — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:38:37 -0000

Dead end? Not dead end? I can only point to the hopelessness some of us can feel, that is until we look at the inevitable demise of the mainstream churches. Is Christianity itself on its way out? To be replaced by Islam or some kind of Orwellian dystopia? Fundamentalism, intolerance and fanaticism seem to have a "future", but one in which I would want no part. I am open-minded and I need to have more experience of independent communities. The various ones here in France seem to be about dressing up, inflated egos and exorcisms for money. To use a metaphor, you can steer a boat without a rudder by balancing the mainsail and the jib - it's a knife edge. I am very happy to see you, John Plummer and others showing a new and more contemplative way, something more humble, modest and realistic. Some expressions can be a dead end, and others show hope. We are often concerned to leave something for posterity and we fail. Life itself is a dead-end with only faith in the Resurrection.

The other elephant in the room is the question of a lay "market". Generally, the independent way is the only "outlet" for our vocations, whilst the laity can shop around and find a church they like and which includes them. The only future I can see is a kind of "secular monasticism", and there is a developing movement in this direction. We just have to be careful of the temptation of wanting to live by our priesthood - it leads to dishonesty. We need to earn our living independently of our priestly calling. That is what monks do in conventional monasteries, making pots, cottage crafts and that sort of thing. I do technical translations for industrial customers.

It is still in the "building site" stage, and many aspects of our religious life are still on the drawing board. So, I can't be "dogmatic" in affirming a "dead end" or lack thereof. But the danger is there. It's up to us and each one of us.

Re: Kindle As Research Tool

Alexis — Tue, 09 Aug 2011 12:28:05 -0000

Hello, welcome!

Yes - I'm curious to see how my use of this little gadget will evolve. I'm sitting here wondering - how long will it be before we see kindle-like devices as the "norm" for things like liturgical settings - z.b. the gospel book as icon in the liturgy etc. This one sticks out for me because the actual use of books rather than scrolls was a largely Christian innovation "back in the day" - will we be so willing to innovate again? What would that look like? Would we find "dedicated" devices for liturgical use?

Re: Kindle As Research Tool

Eddie Green — Mon, 08 Aug 2011 16:36:56 -0000

Funny how the Kindle gets under your skin. After a bit of experimentation I have filled mine up with all sorts of classic texts - some of them PDF scans where a OCR'd version wasn't available.

As I recently blogged (http://www.future-shape-of-... I have also found the Kindle very useful in practical ministry. I certainly preach from it every week, use it for funerals, and for meetings where I don't want to carry my laptop.

Re: The Incarnation & Active Christianity

Alexis — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:16:52 -0000

Thanks Lyngine for your kind words - nice to see you poking around :)

Re: The Incarnation & Active Christianity

Lyngine — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 00:56:56 -0000

Greetings Alexis,

I've missed your thought-provoking posts and unapologetic OC/IC voice. Interesting post and it bears some more thought...

Word has it that you are close to being done with das elefant? Good luck and good wishes!

Re: Being Content

Jonathan Blundell — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 04:40:01 -0000

Great post!

"fine-tuning the spirit, character, and body of the individual, training him or her towards transcendence" is a great picture for goal and picture for Followers of the Way (although transcendence might scare many away ;-)).

I think you summed up a lot of my goals for WeLiveSimply in your closing paragraph...

"nally, with less clutter, less stuff, and more opportunities to engage and create with others, and for others, one finds that the fulfillment of things is replaced with a more stable, deeper fulfillment of personality – this is an expression of true asceticism, and the goal of Christian teaching."

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the link to WeLiveSimply!

Re: Small Gods, Small Churches

Alexis — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:26:53 -0000

Yeah, he's the bad guy.
His mind is hard, dark, and closed, nothing gets in, not even the voice of the God Om.
He represents fundamentalism, hunger for power, and the worship of the institution all wrapped up into one.
He is a murderous, destructive character. Everyone fears and loathes him - even Om wants to kill him. He is only interested in building his own power "in the name of" Om.

Re: Small Gods, Small Churches

Huw — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:22:12 -0000

Lord Vorbis?

Re: It Came, It Went, And I Completely Missed it

Alexis — Sun, 09 May 2010 11:00:20 -0000

Thanks Lyngine! I'm hoping to return to investing more time in the site once I finish the last edits of the PhD from hell.

Re: It Came, It Went, And I Completely Missed it

Lyngine — Sat, 08 May 2010 22:31:22 -0000

Happy Blog Anniversary and Congratulations!

Re: "A" Is For "ASBO" and "Atheist"

Nicholas — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:53:58 -0000

Thanks for your interesting observation on this event. It doesn't seem like a sensible way to spread the atheist message, I can't see it having been intended as anything other than to cause offence and upset. What state is somebody's soul in if they even contemplate trying to cause offence and hurt others, whether they are successful or not? Prayers for all who intentionally cause hurt and pain to others.

Re: The Fast – What’s It All About Anyway?

Alexis — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:12:41 -0000

sounds neat I look forward to hearing (viewing?) it.

Re: The Fast – What’s It All About Anyway?

Huw Raphael — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:57:28 -0000

I understand your point about Great Lent sort of "taking over" but, at least among the convert communities, the other 3 fasts (Advent, Theotokos & APostles) get equal play and the WEd/Friday fasts as well. I think what's missing, mostly, is the connection you cite, of choosing and preparing and eating a meal.

I'm currently working on a podcast where different spiritual trads get to talk about food as, exactly, praxis.

Re: Incense: “Sacrifice Locally”

Alexis — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:56:12 -0000

actually - no. It rained! I was not going to go rummaging in the rain - I'm comitted, but not yet comitt-able! ha ha ha. However, that said I realise now that with my new food dehydrator that it expands my options a bit. Hmmm . . . . once I get my act together on this, and experiment with a few things, I'll be sure to "report back" he he he.

Re: Incense: “Sacrifice Locally”

John — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:53:10 -0000

Hey - I just read this. I am so behind! Did you have any luck?

Re: Incense: “Sacrifice Locally”

Alexis — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 07:53:14 -0000

First - I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment "nothing wrong with using 'classical', but becoming Christian is not becoming a fourth century Byzantine" God knows the indie movement has been afflicted for far too long by this particular problem.

Second - I like your idea of "expansion" - when I first saw your Tweet I was thinking more along the lines of the offering/sacrifices of the community being produced "within" the community - it is one reason for example that I'm a huge supporter of indie folk creating their own liturgical art (and art generally), and even more accessible - baking their own bread for the eucharist (not a problem for us eastern folks - grin - but awkward (?) for many westerners in the movement. So, if we can - within our local communities - devise and produce yet another element of that - i.e. incense - and even share the recipie with other indie folk - all the better.

But - your idea is, I think, even richer - in that not only is it about bringing the local community together to "reclaim" if you will - some of what has been lost in our oh so modern and mass produced world - but to also embody that sense of "eucharist" and "doxology" on a broader scale - taking it "out of the getto" so to speak, and into the World. If I'm understanding you correctly - very cool, very cool indeed.

Re: Incense: “Sacrifice Locally”

Huw — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 21:26:31 -0000

I want to take it beyond the issue of "grow your own". The Biblical recipes for incense include a lot of spices that were local to Israel 9and some that were not). The traditional church recipes include a lot of local-to-Greece/Roman Empire material.

If the sacrifice of the Church is a making-holy-of/making-thanksgiving-for all of the world it would seem very appropriate to use Japanese flower scents in Japan, Dragon's Blood and Palm in Polynesia, American conifers & other aboriginal materials in the US & Canada, Kopal in Central and Southern America, etc.

Likewise... the other things that we do: vestments and music, style of art, etc

Nothing wrong with using "classical", but becoming Christian is not becoming a 4th Century Byzantine...

Re: Hagiographical Hiccups

Huw — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:25:12 -0000

Makes me think of (icons as??) baseball trading cards. The facts are not all that important in a real way: We tell these stories to honour the saints, yes... but we also tell them to spur ourselves on. I think it's important that we tell these stories for ourselves. I'm happy to hear all Christian communities (even the EOC) naming Saints from the last century - even the last 50 years. It helps to see the holy and heroic in one's own time, as well as in the distant past.

Re: How Did You Gain (or loose) Your Faith?

The Rev.Tom Gilbert — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:33:54 -0000

Hi Bishop Alexis,
Thanks for the link to the Stephen Bates' Guardian article. Situations like this make me very upset and angry. Certainly not with the individuals such as Mr.Bates, but with the institutional churches which continue to see human beings as so much flotsam and jetsam in their theological wars. We become the "collateral damage" of their supposed righteousness. How awful! I have posted about Mr.Bates' circumstance over on my blog. Many Blessings.

http://anglo-universalist.b...

Re: No Pain No Gain

Lyngine — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 03:37:51 -0000

And, of course, all this stuff that we do can be done by individual folk across jurisdictions as you and Huw have already done :).

Re: No Pain No Gain

Lyngine — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 03:32:21 -0000

Actually, it's Chris T. who has the ministry that goes on exclusively on conference call :). The Traditional Liturgy Apostolate in the jurisdiction prays Compline from the Monastic Diurnal every week (Tuesday night) by conference call and has been doing a variation of this regularly for over a year. Chris T started that and heads it up. People take turns doing various parts of the Office. It's worked very well and they've figured out how to pray the Office in this format.

We actually use conference calls for a lot of things---everything from weekly seminary classes, weekly novitiate formation, monthly prayer/fellowship for professed religious, etc. We also do what I call "random phone vespers"---pretty much anyone in the jurisdiction, who just happens to want to pray with other folk, can put a notice up on our yahoo group to see if anyone is up for vespers via conference call that night or the next day--as long as there's one other person, it happens. There are some weeks when some of us are on the phone 2-3 nights---this in addition to the weekly Sunday Mass, weekly Wednesday Vespers, and monthly Friday contemplative Vespers.

So there are several opportunities for people who are at a distance to keep in touch and worship together on a regular basis. It's not always ideal and it doesn't replace being part of a local Christian community but it does seem to keep people connected to each other and to the jurisdiction. The majority of us are also on Facebook and that helps with having a sense of what is going on in people's daily lives---it's incomplete, of course, but it's a nice way to share daily things with people in the jurisdiction.

If Skype permitted multiple people on video, it'd be something to seriously consider. The main caveat would be that there's a range of financial and technological resources across the jurisdiction so it's not such an attractive proposition to begin something that would automatically exclude folk due to economics or technology.

I think the trick for us isn't so much using any new type of technology---it's mostly phone stuff. It's more a matter of having regularly scheduled times to interact/pray across a distance that we all commit to as a community.

(Our jurisdiction permits priests to celebrate Eucharist in private so that's not an issue for the ICCC clergy. +Tim talks about it in John Plummer's book (The Many Paths of the Independent Sacramental Movement).)

Re: Matthias

Alexis — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:50:21 -0000

Hi Joseph,

Yeah - I think Chrysostom got piled on too! he he he

Re: Matthias

Joseph Augustine — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:12:27 -0000

+ALexis,

Our Holy Father, Augustine, was put forth for ordained service by this "mob" discernment. We Augustinians know all to well these workings of the Holy Spirit and respectfully fear them! LOL

Re: This Is Interesting . . . .

Joseph Augustine — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:03:00 -0000

+Alexis,

Thank you for calling attention to this. As my spiritual director once taught me, the spirituality of LGBT persons is deeply rooted in the desert and exodus experience: A faithful God walking with us and leading us through a wilderness requiring of us deep trust, faith, and hope.

Also as a formation director, I can testify to the threefold calling of all: the call to be, to live, to do. LGBT persons are confronted like no other group to really discern the first question that makes the others possible: Who am I?/How did God create me?/Why did God create me this way? Only then can one really answer: how am I to live my life and what am I to do with it?

Joseph Augustine+